Two Steps Back....

[dobie]

We finally got around to the 440 I've had sitting in my garage today. As usual for me, it needs far more work and money. I was hoping to basically drop it in with just minimal parts and effort, but no such luck. All looked well until the heads came off. There has been a coolant leak at some point which really shows in cylinder #6. All of the others look ok. On piston #8 there is a gouge where the valve's were hitting. Obviously it wasn't clearanced when it was put together. According to the pistons, the motor is already .020 over. I've been told not to go over .040 over for a street motor. One thing we thought of was just getting this cylinder sleeved, which of course would save a ton of money.

For now, I think I've decided to skip the 440 project. I'm back to thinking about my 383. I now plan on buying a decent set of heads for the 383. There is a local guy here who is well known for head work and has built many a race motor. (Basket, do you remember the older Dodge truck doing the burnouts at Burger King? Same guy.) I've been told the heads are the most important thing to spend money on motor wise, so that's what I'm doing. I called Comp Cams yesterday too. They recommended XE274 grind. This grind is a split profile with .488 intake/.491 exhaust lift. Due to my 3.91 gears and 4 speed, I'm able to run a more aggressive cam on this basically stock low compression motor. According to Comp Cams, the Xtreme Energy cams ramp up faster and help a great deal with low-po engines. Also, I'm looking into the Mopar Performance steel shim head gaskets, as I've heard these will add around 1/2 point of compression. Oh, I'll finally be using my Jett-Hott coated headers I bought 3 years ago too.

Next Saturday we'll be doing a compression test to make sure all is good. 2 weeks after that, we're planning on pulling the motor out. This is only to replace the main/rod bearings, and a new rear seal. I know I don't have too, and I really don't want too. My uncle has highly suggested the bearing replacement though, for added insurance. I suppose it can't hurt, huh? Anyways, I'll end with a few pics!

:cheers:

 

[dobie]

Other side.

 

[dobie]

Here's the damage to #6 cylinder and #8 piston. The mark going left to right in the pic on #8 is where the valve was hitting.

:cheers:

 

[69hemibeep]

It looks like it had Felpro head gaskets, did you see where the coolant leak was as in blown gasket? If not look for cracks!

 

[dobie]

Yeah, Felpro blue's. The water jacket's were all but covered up. In taking the head off, there was no noticeable gasket issue.

 

[Roadcuda]

Dobie, it's funny you talk about not boring over .040 on a 440. Just last night at the winter party the local mopar club held, some guys were talking about this. On guy wants to build an engine for F.A.S.T. racing and asked about going over .040. He was also told not to go over that .040 mark because it will make the cyclinder walls too thin, and could actually make them wobble as the pistion moves up and down. I do trust what these guys say, but has anyone else heard this?

 

[dobie]

Well, I was told not to exceed .040 over in a street motor for reliability issues. The larger the overbore, the more overheating issues you have, or so I'm told. At this point, while I want decent power, I really don't want any reliability/drivability issues.

 

[Basketcase]

yeah, make reliability #1. no sense making all kind of HP, if you can't depend on it. When I did my 440 back in '86, a lot of guys were telling me "do this and that". 375 stock was enough for me. And I drove the cars the engine was in all summer, and the only thing I ever did in 20 years was a starter and tune up.You may not need to do the bearings, but good insurance. Now(you've probably thought of this) pick up a new timing chain and gears,and replace the freeze plugs. BB mopars are a PIA to change freeze plus in the car, and a few you can't get too.

 

[dobie]

Good thinking Basket. Actually, I replaced the timing chain last year with a new double roller. New freeze plugs were also put in before the motor went in. The only thing we didn't replace was the rear main seal, which is the only thing leaking! :brickwall:

 

[Big John]

The nick doesn't look too bad, I'd use the piston, but I would check the valve.

What about .030 over? Will it clean up with .010?

You might be able to do the .040 over if you had the block sonic tested by someone that knows what they are doing.

 

[dobie]

Honestly, I don't know. Some of the marks "feel" pretty bad, which is why I was presented with either another .020 overbore or sleeving it.

 

[Confederate1969]

Don't feel bad Dobie. At least you didn't have as bad of a mess as I found when I pulled of my heads. There's been a lotta cussin and head scratching in my garage the last few months with my engine. And Memphis doesn't even really have any machine shops left that I have been able to find. Even if I did, I have no one to ask about the quality of a place. We don't have a such thing as cruise-ins in Memphis (to get suggestions and recommendations from fellow enthusiasts). I had never even heard of a cruise-in until I was on this site and the .org site. The only two Mopar guys I have ever really known are my dad and my uncle, who lives in St Louis. (And he hasn't machined and rebuilt a Mopar engine in over a decade). So, my engine's going to end up being the very last thing I finish on the RR.

After having used several different chemicals on my engine to try to get the pistons loose, I'm almost certain now after having some friends look at it as well that the only thing left to try is a torch. :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall:

 

[Basketcase]

Hey Steve I wouldn't write off that 440 yet. still won't be a quick clean up and drop in, but I'd take it to a good machine shop, and have them look at it. You just might get away with a .10.

 

[dobie]

Yeah, I'm not gonna get rid of it. For now though it appears it'll require more money than what I have for everything, especially if it needs to be opened up a bit more. That takes new pistons, etc... so, I think the cheapest route for now is to invest some work in the 383. The money spent now on the heads I can transfer over down the road to the 440. All I'll be out is another cam and a few gaskets maybe. Well, new bearings, but that's probably money spent well at this point anyways.

 

[mcmopar]

You may not need another cam and lifters, either. Check with the cam grinder's tech departments and see if there is a cam grind that would translate from your 383 into the 440. Its a direct swap so mechanically you are fine. If I were building a 440 I'd just swap my current cam, lifters, valve train (except pushrods of course) and heads into the 440 and be gone.

 

[mjoyner408]

i read somewhere that in the hp 383's they used 4 bbl 440 cams.

 

[Basketcase]

IIRC, the road runner and Super Bee 383s used the 440HP cam,heads,to get the extra 5hp.

 

[mjoyner408]

is that the 906's i have a 69 steel crank 440 that had the 906's i believe. i cannot remember what the 76 440 had.

 

[mcmopar]

'69 heads were indeed 906's on all 383's and 440's from the factory. It didn't matter if the engine was a 2 bbl or a 6 Pack - they all used 906 heads. The factory service/warranty replacement heads had a different casting number which I cannot remember right now.
And, yes, the 383 made use of the 440 Magnum/Super Commando camshaft and springs.

The '76 heads were slightly different in runner design and used hardened valve seats. I have a set of '74 452 castings on my 383 with the hardened valve seats so I can run unleaded fuel. Running unleaded fuel in heads without hardened exhaust valve seats will cause the valve seats to sink into the head dramatically. A buddy of mine had 516 heads on his 440 and when he tore it down for a rebuild all the exhaust valves had sunk - some as much as 1/4"! Hardened seats can be obtained and installed by a machine shop so that you can run unleaded fuel in early model heads.

 

[mjoyner408]

ok... side bar... i got my car from the original owner who drove it daily untill well there was a gas recipit in it dated 2003. seeing how it only makes its way around the block a few times a month i only run 110 leaded in it now. how do i tell if he put the hardened seats in it? i would bank on no but i do not know for sure. could there be damage if he did not replace them?