Please critique my possible '69 RM21, E63, D21 trade / purchase

[Fred Zerk]

Hi Folks! Thanks to those I've already gotten some great insight from by PM: Bee Keeper, 69HemiBeep, Quickbird, Basketcase, MsBeep and Big John. Thanks a bunchl!!

RM21 - Road Runner

There are a bunch more pics here:
http://s64.photobucket.com/user/rfsrufus/library/1969 Road Runner

I've been reluctant to post too much on an open forum, but now things are progressing and I'm wanting to tap into the great wealth of RR knowledge on the broader forum.

In selling one of my cars, I've been approached about the possible trade for a '69 RM21 "from the West Coast w/no rust ever / all original body panels". The RR's owner says to have a "complete book of pics from when it was redone" before he bought it. He also says the engine and transmission are both numbers matching.

Things are very tight for me right now, and a likely divorce is looming. I just can't be upside down in the RR, and will really need to flip it.......maybe for a little profit after I correct a few minor things, clean it up more underneath, etc, etc..

Here's a list of features I've discerned from the VIN Tag / partial Broadcast sheet:

VIN Tag:
E63 – 383cid / 335 hp engine
D21 – 4 Speed
H9E - Los Angeles Built
A21 – Oct 21 Build Date
X9 – Black Interior, Door frames
H2X – Trim Code – High Vinyl Bench Seat, Black
R6 – Scorch Red (body)
R6 – Scorch Red (roof)
V7X – Accent (Pin) Stripe (X = black)
R11 – AM Radio
N96 – Carb Fresh Air Package
J25 – Deluxe 3 speed wipers
A87 – Road Runner Décor Group

Partial broadcast sheet:
Tires: T83 - F70-14 "SPEEDWAY" red STANDARD
Exterior paint Style Mono-Tone Paint: V01
Rear axle: "53 / 593" = 3:23 Open Rear Differential, w/11" Front and Rear Drum Brakes.
Radiator: “53” (= 22”)
Wheels: ??W18?? X9 Simulated Mag Wheel Covers
A21 = Sept 21, 1969 Build Date
Steering Wheel / Horn Ring ?12 X9 = ??Deluxe Steering Wheel w/Partial Horn Ring??


Things already pointed out / noticed are:
Ford Wheels
M21 Drip Rail Moldings - missing
Clutch pedal pad - missing
Original Intake – missing or not installed
Original Valve Covers – missing or not installed
Carb? Holley?? Original?? Condition??
Steering wheel condition?
Wires hanging under dash from stereo / instrument installation.
Flawed trim on passenger pillar (sorry if I misquote, I'm going from memory on this.)
Front hood sealing strip – missing
V7X accent stripes – missing
Alternator – replacement / not original
Lots underhood painted (red / silver) that shouldn’t be: release catch, hinges / springs, master cylinder
Spark plug wires / looms – aftermarket / not original type / style
If it was built for California delivery, should have turned down exhaust; certainly not the present chrome tips

Specific questions I have are:
Does the shifter look original? It appears to have more of a curve than others I've seen in pics...
As best I can read of the build sheet (being old helps confirm legitimacy, but can hinder info gathering! : - D ), it looks like it was built with ??W18?? wheels (X9 - painted black!) and "Simulated Mag Wheel Covers". Haven't been able to find a pic of what these look like....anyone know?



Please help me with critiquing the car....what's right? wrong?
I know this is not a fair question to ask, but I must: What price do you think for today's market?? Even a range is very helpful!!

My thoughts are.....maybe correct wheels / trim, intake, valve covers and ?carb? (whatever can be found), plus a thorough cleaning of the undercarriage, before putting it on the market. Am I crazy??


For reference, here's a link to what I did to sell to sell my original owner 1993 Mustang Cobra w/ 202,000 miles recently:
http://s64.photobucket.com/user/rfsrufus/library/1993 Mustang Cobra 2296

Thanks in advance for any and all help!

Regards,
Fred

 

[chapdog105]

I'll do my best. I'm far from an expert, but have picked up a thing or two on here and restoring my car over the past 5 years.
Are you expecting to go complete "back to factory" on the car? If so, don't plan on flipping for money. You'll spend way more making it correct than you'll ever get back out of the car.
It looks like it's been driven...and someone has attempted to clean up some things with paint.
It would be nice to see the underbody. It's be worried about no pics of the framerails.
Most people run Magnum 500 wheels over stock or Road Wheels, so that's not a big deal. Switching to a bulls-eye center cap would help ease the Mopar "experts".
I think the exhaust tips are the biggest thing most RR guys would notice off the bat. Switching to set of correct tips would go a long way.
How many miles are on her?
It looks like a nice car. I would say that if it's numbers match as stated, you'd realistically have a $25-35k car depending on what it looks like up close.

 

[Big John]

IMHO, the car is nice. Looks like it's had a recent repaint and a rattle can "restoration" of the suspension. It has some some detail issues, like no heater hose bracket, cracked steering wheel (it's covered!) and some other things that need attention.

At first blush, I'd tell you to buy it and drive it... then start detailing as you go. Most of us would go that route..... A pending divorce and resale... That's another matter. The car is lacking a number of things that would bring top dollar and make it attractive to those with the money to spend. So, from that aspect, my advice is to keep (or sell) the Mustang.

I wish you luck with the divorce, many of us have been through it and I give this advice to every guy that is ... Strike first. Don't let it just happen, get control of the situation and sit down with your lawyer and let her be on the defense rather than you. I followed my own advice on this.... Kept the house, kids, pensions, cars, and more importantly, my business.

 

[Fred Zerk]

Thanks for your ideas chapdog, Big John. I agree 100% with your conclusion, chapdog, that the most likely way to come out ahead on the car might be to move it in the direction of a nice driver rather than a complete / all original, numbers matching, restored car.

There's much more to my story that I haven't shared which is very sad and affects my decision: without going too deep into the weeds, I consulted in great detail twice with a good attorney recommended by my neighbor / assistant DA. The conclusion is "I'm screwed.....royally". A line comes to mind from a Cold Play song about: "I sweep the streets that I used to own". I'll be 64 next month, and now must develop a means of supplementing what will be a very modest retirement income after quitting full time employment as a highly paid automotive engineer 11 years ago to become the stay-at-home-dad while my wife went to work and eventually started her own business. There are other generous, but really dumb, dumb, dumba$$ things I did that will further devastate my dreams / finances, but won't go into. My state offers little / no consideration for a man in my situation, so I....am....at....my....wife's...mercy. Sorry for my rant. Back on topic:

So, I'm planning to try my hand at buying and selling cars after some minor 'upgrades' and thorough clean-up detailing, etc.. In preparing and advertising my Mustang (sold last month) and the ultra-low mile one owner S2000 my RR guy wants to trade for, I think I have a knack for the preparation and marketing aspects of selling a (performance) car. The operative words are I leveraging my experience / preparation / marketing (all maybe imagined) aptitudes and be extremely careful not to overpay when I buy. Another advantage I perceive in my present situation is that I have the car my RR guy wants....i.e. he wants my car more than I want his.

I know.....maybe an RR isn't my dream car at this stage of my life, but I gotta survive. At least I'm a car guy, like and respect all performance cars, and (I think) remember correctly Car and Driver's first test of an E63 in 1968 yielded a 14.9 sec 1/4 mile ET. They wrote (tongue in cheek) that Plymouth stole Brock Yates' idea for an econo muscle car and was going around blowin up RR's. Sorry if I'm misremembering, I'm away from my stash of back issues. Well really my wife still has 'em at "the house." I even test drove a new RR back in 1970! (but decided not to buy it 'cause the one the dealer brought out was about $1400 more than their advertisement!)

So, another question:
Does anyone have any good quality color pics showing what the engine compartment of a 1968 E63 should look like?

One thing I have proven over the last 40 years is a knack for buying and keeping cars for a number of years before selling them at a tidy profit. Unfortunately, I haven't figured a way to capitalize on this....it's impossible / ludicrous to consider taking a door off an antique car to my local local store to pay for groceries. : - \

 

[Fred Zerk]

Hi Folks. Thanks once again for enlightening me on 1969 Road Runners.

Since the car I looked at yesterday is currently listed on Ebay, I thought I'd post some of my observations from seeing it first hand.

First the body, paint, glass, chrome trim are all very, very nice!! It shows well up close. There are swirl marks in the finish that could easily be removed by polishing. And just a slight nick or tiny ding in a few paces in the chrome trim, and some that isn't 'on' quite as tightly as it should be, is all I noticed. Underneath, the body is undercoated....yuk!! The suspension...practically everything including the leaf springs is painted.....someone went wild with the rattle can. Before going to see the car, I visited one of the best body and paint guys I know in the Raleigh area. He's a Mopar guy, has done numerous high-end restorations for wealthy clients. He's presently doing an AAR Cuda for himself. Anyway he gave me some tips on what to look for to confirm the health of the body and frame of an alleged "no rust ever" Road Runner. From what I could tell, this claim is legitimate. I stuck my finger inside every frame opening I could find and found virtually no evidence of rust flakes. Almost everything I pulled out with my fingers was grass, leaves, dust balls, etc.. I looked at welds / seams in the common rust areas (in the trunk, firewall, door jambs, along the door bottoms, etc.) and could see no evidence of rust bubbling beneath the surface.

Now for the disappointments: I did not come away with the feeling the seller is being entirely forthright in describing the car. He describes the car has "no leaks, at all". But when he backed the car from its spot in his storage building, there was an absorbent mat underneath. When up in the air, I saw evidence of 2 leaks (one of which his buddy who owns the lift tried to hide by wiping away before I could see). Probably what turned me off the most is a broken engine block mounting ear for the bellhousing. Another concern if I were planning to keep the car relates to the engine....specifically the cam and lifters. The seller said he uses Mobil1 10w-30 synthetic oil. Apparently he doesn't know about ZDDP. It's quite possible the cam and lifters are ok after the rebuild, but I'd want to see a used engine oil analysis. That's just me......an OCD engineer!

I arrived with a trade scenario in mind based on the assumption the car was exactly as described and no other issues were found. After what I saw, the number in my mind dropped and it became clear we'd not be able to reach an agreement on a trade for my S2000. He's likely upside down in the RR after paying too much for a cosmetically nice restoration.....just my speculation.

Here's a link to his Ebay auction (I'm watching anxiously to see if it sells!):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Plymouth-Ro...c43d30440&item=121396986944&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

Cheers!!