Insuring our cars.

[Russ69Runner]

My insurance is up for renewal next month and wondered what the total cost of would be replacing the car if it was totaled in an accident. I also see that I need to pay an extra amount for getting the car back from the insurance company if the car is totaled. Would you pay for that. Just because the car is assumed to be totaled by the insurance company. That does not mean it can't be fixed. I am covering it for 43 thou. right now, and think should increase it to about 60 thou. Cost of parts are out of sight like sheet metal and other parts. After seeing the cost of the cars going for sale out there just make me wonder. Appreciate any thoughts on this. Russ.

 

[RonLiv]

There are several Insurance Company's who specialize in this stuff. Most of which we all know who they are, Hagerty, Grundy, and American Collectors are the ones I use. (I'm an Insurance Broker) I like them for the "Agreed Value" and the fact claim settlement is based on NOS or OEM when available. Non-collector insurers may give you stated value but not the control over parts. They also will be quicker to total a car even if the repairs are less than the stated amount. They give you the cash and take the car. Any insurance contract you have is a contract that assigns the risk for a premium to the insurance company. So the claim is theirs, not yours. They settle in their interest unless it is contractually stated otherwise. Getting the car back if totaled including the settlement amount is called "Cherished Value" and to my knowledge only Hagerty offers this coverage, for a cost. Most will value the car based on comparable car sales. Hagerty's web site will tell you what they think your car is worth based on their data base. They have a team that updates car values at a minimum quarterly and publishes a Price Guide. Mopars in particular are difficult due to the small numbers made and the variance in price of say a matching numbers car and a non matching car in the same condition. The cars are categorized 1 through 6, with a number 1 car being a concourse perfect example and a number 6 being a not running incomplete or parts car.

In Hagerty's most recent book for a 1969 Coupe 383 / There may be more current data on the web site.
#1 Car - $74,000
#2 Car - $54,100
#3 Car - $32,700
#4 Car - $24,000

I think we all know who went through a restoration, the cost of the restoration often exceeds the cars value. The agreed values are based on current market price for the car not a restoration.

 

[Jack R]

A few years ago I had a claim with American Collectors insurance on my Camaro. Damage I caused. Had engine out of the car and needed some measurements for the custom crossmember. Jacked it up on one side and the hood on the blanket on the roof slid off damaged the hood, door and quarter panel.
I only told them I damaged it in the garage. The adjuster came out in one or two days and wrote me an adequate check. Still with them with both cars.

 

[Russ69Runner]

Thanks for the info. Yes, I agree with all that. So will get in touch with them and go back over some things with the policy. Figure to rise the price to 60 thou. Also pay their 81-dollar fee for retrieving the car if it worth it when totaled. Hope this never happens but who know. Thanks again RonLiv.

 

[Rapid Transit]

If one of my cars was "totaled" it would be worth paying a small amount just to have the carcass for sentimental purposes.
Odds are the wreck would be caused but someone else texting anyway.
Not by me.
Learned the hard way about only carrying liability on an antique car and having to deal with the other driver's carrier when hit by a moron.
Happened twice. First time I tried to be fair.
I did it right the next time.
(Had to since daily driver.)
The insurance adjuster is probably clueless.
Tar the whole industry with the same brush.
The insurance commissioners are in bed with the companies.
It's rotten to the core.
(Amd that doesn't even start on body shops)

 

[RonLiv]

If one of my cars was "totaled" it would be worth paying a small amount just to have the carcass for sentimental purposes.
Odds are the wreck would be caused but someone else texting anyway.
Not by me.
Learned the hard way about only carrying liability on an antique car and having to deal with the other driver's carrier when hit by a moron.
Happened twice. First time I tried to be fair.
I did it right the next time.
(Had to since daily driver.)
The insurance adjuster is probably clueless.
Tar the whole industry with the same brush.
The insurance commissioners are in bed with the companies.
It's rotten to the core.
(Amd that doesn't even start on body shops)

One of the values of a collector car insurance company is if you are in a not at fault accident, they will still settle the claim for you based on the terms of their policy, then will chase the other Insurance company for reimbursement. Don't ever try to settle with the other person's company, especially if they are one of the cut rate carriers. That goes for your daily drivers as well. I was sitting at a red light in my Jeep and a guy making a left turn tried to make the light and plowed right into me head on. Clearly his fault as I was not moving. He got two citations from the police. I let my company settle the claim, as my Jeep is highly modified, and the value is more than what the "book value" shows. He destroyed my brand-new aluminum front bumper, which did its job and protected the car. There was no damage to the body. The force of the collision pushed my car two feet and he broke my front axle (dana 44) with the impact and a bunch of front-end damage and a sliced tire (grappler 35's). His company wanted to total the car and pay me $15,000 and take my Jeep. No F'n way was that going to happen. So I got my company involved, they approved the repairs and went after his (All-State). I'm with Cincinnati Insurance Company. I could get the policy cheaper, but value this kind of service when I need it. So a couple hundred a year is well worth it. Moral of the story, don't be Bottom Dollar Bob.

 

[RonLiv]

Now she's back on the job and me and Milo are back killin' birds with my old Pre WWII Steven's side by side 16 guage. Not worth crappola, but it was my Grandpap's gun. Still shoots straight. Oh yeah, that is an inter-cooler for the RIPP Super-Charger you see behind the grill. I can go anywhere in this thing and in a hurry if I want too.

 

[Russ69Runner]

So, what brought me to this is last week while driving on a back road not a major HWY. Was headed to my smoke shop about 10 miles from home. There is a hair pin curve at one point with a blind road that comes into it. People turning on and off the road I was on tend to not look turning on to the road I was on. You must slowdown in that curve it is sharp. This a hilly area also. After getting just past that road coming into the road, I was on keeping my head on a swivel saw a car coming down the hill into this curve. Noticed a black SUV coming around him and thought. Surely this jerk was not passing someone in this curve. I veered off the road halfway and so did the vehicle this jerk was passing. I saw my life flash before my eyes and the car passing was in a high rate of speed which was way too fast for the curve. With my insurance renewal coming up this next month started me thinking do I have enough coverage to replace the car if totaled. Think about this is also where do I get another runner. In as good of shape as mine is in and how much time and money to build the car to the standards I wanted in my car. You just can't go to a car lot and pic out another one. There was so much time just looking for one to restore. It was crazy money I paid for this car in the begging any ways. Then putting 5 years into the build on top of it all. Sheet metal is not as available as it was then. Price of things have gone up also. Can I really find another runner in the shape this car is in. It only has 3000 plus miles on it after a total rebuild from ground up. Nothing was not restored on the car. Two folder bulging with receipts of parts bought. Have not even totaled out all the money spent of the restore process. Afraid it would give me a hart attract. LOL. So, be safe my friends and enjoy every day we can get into our cars and have fun.

 

[Rapid Transit]

The biggest insurance routine rip off (other than my rates going up for reasons that don't apply to me personally ) is charging liability per car and not the license.
Insure the license and not the csr.
Oh, there are reasons for charging me for liabily on every car I own.
But no one has ever been able to give me a good, overriding reason for having to pay liability on every vehicle I own.
I can only drive one car at a time.
If I cause any problems, the cop tickets my license and not the car.
Who goes to court and jail?
Not the car.

I'm that square peg in a round hole.
Collector car companies don't really apply to cars that are driven 74 miles everyday cross town rain and shine.
Been doing that (and cross country) for 25 years in a 73 Dodge.

We have some type of dangerous cultural thing that happens here.
People needing a funeral procession for showing off.
Normally I check my rear at a stop.
But one afternoon a motorcycle cop flies into the intersection in front of me and others.
It happens fast.
Everyone stops. Expect for one person.
He knocks the car beside me into the intersection and hits me in the side.
I'm guessing if I had anything other than liability with a non collector company, arguing with them and subrogation wouldn't help anyway.

My father had a system.
Drive an older car and just carry liability.
Of course a 58 Buick in 1963 was different from a 2008 Honda CRV in 2023.
I'm crossing my fingers that one of our late model older vehicles doesn't get damaged.
I'm talking over 10 years old and 50 thousand miles garage kept.
Try and deal with an insurance company on that one with collision even.

 

[RonLiv]

Insurance rates are derived on a large pool of risk, someone in New Jersey has an accident, that effects everyone in the pool. So even though you have no claims, your rates go up for various reasons, the performance of the pool but more so the return on investment. I can vividly remember while going through training at Aetna Casualty (no longer in existence) every single morning the instructor would write on the board "Aetna is the largest diversified financial institution in the world". What does that tell you? Insurnace companies don't make money on profits from premiums exceeding claims & expenses, they make profit on what they do with that money. They compete with each other for money to invest. Most if not all of the companies do not make an underwriting profit. But it's a fine line depending on investment returns and reserves they are required to carry to maintain their financial ratings.

Actuarily speaking, different cars present different risk factors, so it would be impossible to make a single charge. I suppose you could have a blended rate, but it would be the same as two cars showing a separate charge. Usually, you get a discount for having multiple cars on a policy with a lone driver. And the law stipulates that the insurance follows the car, not the driver. So, no matter who is driving, the car is insured as well as the 3rd party liability. The law also stipulates that one is required to have insurance. All things the Insurance companies don't control. Although probably in the best interest of the common good. Nothing is worse than getting hit by an uninsured or underinsured driver.

Insurance is not some evil deception whose purpose is to separate you from your money. It's also not a commodity where the products and services offered for the purchase are the same either. Bottom Dollar Bob usually gets what he bought, a poor experience. Like anything else you get what you pay for. Most don't get this, until they actually need to call on it.

 

[Rapid Transit]

IF the license was insured (for liability purposes) the "car" would still be "insured".
You say this is by law and not under the control of the companies??
That probably proves my case.
Insurance commissioners are in bed with the companies.
I get the feeling they lobby too.
Just a feeling.
Bottom Dollar Bob sure saved a bundle when he was eligible for the AARP policy and had a real choice.
People are going to drive uninsured regardless.
IF it was tied to the license and payed in advance upon issuing the license that might even be better.
In a perfect world.

 

[RonLiv]

This is true, but how would you develop rates? The Insurance must the follow the car. It if was based on just having a driver's license everyone would pay the same? The Kia owner and the McLaren owner would have the same rate? Not realistic or fair. The Kia owner would be subsidizing the McLaren. Sounds like Insurance Socialism. What if you had a driver's license but didn't own a car? Would you still have to pay? You borrow my car, I permit it, you crash, have no insurance. Since the Insurance is no longer with the car, but with the license, I'm out of luck.

FYI - AARP uses The Hartford. One of the largest insurance companies around. This is a group purchasing program or affinity program, of which there are many such deals to take advantage of. This is a good program and I like the fact that if you are enrolled you are guaranteed a renewal regardless of your age. Although they can still dump you for claims. I wouldn't necessarily consider The Hartford as a cheap cut rate option. They are a reputable company.

 

[Rapid Transit]

The Kia owner and the McLaren owner would have the same rate? Not realistic or fair. The Kia owner would be subsidizing the McLaren. Sounds like Insurance Socialism.

I didn't think the two hypotheticals (or any you may present) necessarily paid the same rate now.
Seems like you have presented a straw man?
There is a solution. But it probably is not palatable to some people.
"Socialism" is a buzz word boogie man.
And I would not suggest that.
Even if it does apply in the insurance industry to some extent now.
I'm trying to be objective since I have no monetary bias in the industry.

 

[RonLiv]

I'm just speaking from over 40 years in the industry and gaining an understanding of how things work. Florida is a perfect example. It is really difficult to make money as a property insurer in this State. In fact, a large number of insurance company's have exited as they are not being allowed to charge a premium where they can at least break even, dollar collected vrs. dollar paid out. (See the combined below, most either lose money or make a couple pennies on the dollar.) The result is several options for the consumer, either a State Funded option, which is a disaster if a hurricane comes or any loss for that matter, it could be years in before you recover any claim money, or a non-rated "Take Out" company who files bankruptcy at the first blow of the wind. I fail to see how the Insurance Commissioner's are in bed with the Insurance Company's in this instance. The free market was not left to prevail.

For those who think the Insurance Industry is akin to the Evil Empire, easy solution, don't buy any. Or buy the minimum you are required to in your State or by any creditor who holds a mortgage or is a Loss payee. Self insure the rest.

I apologize if I get a little bit defensive here defending what it is I do for a living. To this day I still put in many 10-12 hour days working hard for my clients. For this I do not apologize.

OK, I'm off my soap box. I'm sure most are bored to tears talking about Insurance, if you've even read any this so far. I've been called a Insurance Nerd before and if anyone has questions or would like my opinion on something insurance related I would be glad to discuss in the private message area.

U.S. Property and Casualty Insurance Industry Results
2020 2019 2018 2017 2016 2015 2014 2013 2012 2011
Combined Ratio - 98.7% 98.7% 99.1% 103.9% 100.5% 97.8% 97.3% 96.0% 103.1% 108.0%

 

[Rapid Transit]

No worries.
You have inside knowledge and have taken your valuable time to provide useful information to the OP and others.

I can’t solve my own problems and I can't fix the broken auto insurance industry.
You may say apple and oranges.
But if a poll was taken, I'm feel most people here would agree the auto insurance industry is broken in some ways.
Similar to the way our health care system insurance industry is broken.
(I watched the hearings on Obama Care. What a joke. )

I’ve seen employer group plans where the young healthy people subsidize the old ones.
People with one child subsidize those with eight .
All paying the same premiums per policy

For years I've watched the game with my auto insurance rates.
1. If I have liability on a couple of cars, it is X amount per car for liability.
If I add another car it doesn’t go up from X amount to the next car.
It is just tacked on same/same usually.
And I may never even drive that other car that I’ve added.
I'm aware of the "other driver" that may get in that car.
They have a license and insurance on it?
That was my point 99 post ago.
As you said, it NOW follows the car and not the person driving that may kill someone and go to jail.
That the way it's "regulated" now, I suppose.
But that could change with everything else.
Example: Want "coverage" for someone else to drive your car?
Pay extra. Just one solution to that issue.
(If I'm not going to get pregnant, why do I have to pay for that coverage?)

2. My “rates” have routinely gone up for problems in the country other people are causing/having over the years.

3. If I try and shop for rates, every company I contact already knows what cars I have.
The know everything. So does big brother.
There obviously could be a “work around" for someone trading their Kia for a for a Mclaren on the liability per license alternative I’ve suggested.
It's just not in any company's financial interest.
(At this point I could go into a story about how my state is not following its own regulations on giving title to antique cars. Now there’s can of worms. There are two government web sites I can use in my state that give title searches to the general public. One is national and the other is my state. Just FYI for anyone that cares.)

At least these three things are prima facie evidence that I’m already paying for other people problems.
I see that as a form of regulated Socialism.


You previously pointed to constraints of government regulations.
And I feel sure those regulations are the result of how the insurance companies want things structured.
I’m not intimately familiar with the insurance industry but I am with the airline industry..
Although I’ve been out of it for years I was in it for 25 and can tell you things you won’t read on the interweb via Google
Things she doesn't even know happened.
https://avgeekery.com/frank-lorenzo-might-real-world-airline-grinch/

Regulation and Deregulation are a farce.
Ted Kennedy's idea and Jimmy Carter started it.
Went down hill from there.
The airline industry is still regulated. Just in a different fashion.
Everything from landing slots to seating to paying to keep airports open.
(John Murtha, Essential Air Service, DOT Complaints, etc.)
Where’s the free market?



During the GM bailout debate, this woman had a local talk show on Sunday mornings.
https://ilyceglink.com/
Her gig was/is peddling real estate advice.
Had a moment, so I called and got on the air.
I told her I wasn’t smart enough to say if GM should be bailed out or not.
But IF you went into an auto parts store and asked for bearings, you would be lucky to get them from Mexico.
Most likely they would be Chinese.
During the second world war, the first place “we” bombed was the ball bearing factory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweinfurt–Regensburg_mission
I told here that we weren’t going to make it as a country selling each other real estate.
She just sort of laughed it off, I guess.
At the time Timken was moving overseas and Fafnir was the only one I felt sure was still here.
(Used them on planes. )



Eighteen years ago over four thousand aircraft mechanics tried to warn people about China and no body listened.

They weren’t AFL-CIO.
So NOW..... China is on the radar??
I’ve never shopped at Walmart routinely.
Have you?
Oh sure, I’ve bought things there sometimes with no other choice.
Sometime we have no choice.
Like insurance.
This was 2004.

 

[RonLiv]

Healthcare is a whole nother topic. Insurance Costs have been going up on a double digit level for quite some time. At some point the buying public or more likely employers providing Health Care plans it is all going to reach a breaking point. I hate to say it, but to me I would bet we'll all be on OBama care within the next ten years. In lieu of an employer provided HC plan, you'll get a little extra cash in your paycheck and told to go buy your own. Or something like that. Myself will likely be on Medicare by then, but I bet that is all rolled into as well. HC is not really my area of expertise. But I just don't see how long employers can sustain benefit cost increases in the percentage's we are seeing them.

We don't have a Health Care System in this country, we have a Disease Management System. No one is talking about treating the cause, only the symptoms.

It will wind up a lot like we just got with mortgage money. Those with good credit ratings will now pay more, those with poor credit rating will now pay less, so the good is going to subsidize the bad. It will be the same with Healthcare, those who take care of themselves and incur less costs, will pay more because there are those who do not.

 

[Rapid Transit]

There's a song for that too.

 

[Russ Hood]

There are several Insurance Company's who specialize in this stuff. Most of which we all know who they are, Hagerty, Grundy, and American Collectors are the ones I use. (I'm an Insurance Broker) I like them for the "Agreed Value" and the fact claim settlement is based on NOS or OEM when available. Non-collector insurers may give you stated value but not the control over parts. They also will be quicker to total a car even if the repairs are less than the stated amount. They give you the cash and take the car. Any insurance contract you have is a contract that assigns the risk for a premium to the insurance company. So the claim is theirs, not yours. They settle in their interest unless it is contractually stated otherwise. Getting the car back if totaled including the settlement amount is called "Cherished Value" and to my knowledge only Hagerty offers this coverage, for a cost. Most will value the car based on comparable car sales. Hagerty's web site will tell you what they think your car is worth based on their data base. They have a team that updates car values at a minimum quarterly and publishes a Price Guide. Mopars in particular are difficult due to the small numbers made and the variance in price of say a matching numbers car and a non matching car in the same condition. The cars are categorized 1 through 6, with a number 1 car being a concourse perfect example and a number 6 being a not running incomplete or parts car.

In Hagerty's most recent book for a 1969 Coupe 383 / There may be more current data on the web site.
#1 Car - $74,000
#2 Car - $54,100
#3 Car - $32,700
#4 Car - $24,000

I think we all know who went through a restoration, the cost of the restoration often exceeds the cars value. The agreed values are based on current market price for the car not a restoration.

Well put I'm also a broker