Getting serious on my 383 build, advice wanted

[Confederate1969]

Ok well I'm getting closer to getting my 383 machined. I am thinking seriously about how I'm going to build my 383. Let me know what you think. I know the way I want my engine to perform, so I'm looking for pointers on how to get it.

When I first started taking the RR apart in May 08, I didn't know how the car had been used before me. Now I know that the first two owners (one of them being my dad) drag raced it and really pushed it hard. Because of this, I have no guilt in doing the exact same thing. I want a very strong build with this. It's not going to be a Sunday cruiser and I don't care about gas mileage.

Just got with the original owner again via email the past few days and he let me know that they had improved the valve seats, but the rest of the valve train is stock and the heads are unported and haven't been milled for compression. This is good because now I can do what I want with them as they are basically a clean slate. He also let me know that when they rebuilt the engine in the 70s, they did not bore it over. So again, another clean slate. The only grinding work they had done was on the crank journals. There is a small nick on one of them now, not sure if I did it or not. (probably did.. :brickwall: ) I don't know how this will affect my ability to reuse the crank. Hoping that can be ground away?

Ok, so this is going to be a heavy street/strip build. It's a 4 speed set up as most of you know and it's got a 4.11 8.75" Rear.

I need to be able to talk with the machinist about what I want, so here's where I need help.


1 - Heads (mine are 906)

What kind of compression should I be running? I do want to keep this a pump gas engine. I've heard numbers like 10.0:1 to 10.5:1 with 906 heads. What should I be looking for? It would be nice to use my 906's but if it would be cost worthy to buy new heads, let me know. (I'd doubt that it would be more cost worthy, and I don't really want to swap out heads.)

What kind of valve and port work do I need done?


2 - Cam/Lifters/Valves

This is my weak point! I really don't know a lot about cams and what the different choices mean. "Hydraulic roller", etc.. So I really need help here. I'll buy what ever I need to buy, I just need to know what's best for my aims. I'll go with whoevers valve train I get a cam from to make sure it all works well together.


3 - Pistons/Rods

Oversizing pretty much depends on how bad the bores are right? I'm wanting to go with the minimum possible so I can do this again in 25 years if I feel like it.

What style and brand of pistons and rods do y'all recommend? Since it will be used for some strip time, I want pistons and rods that can take a beating.


---

Those are more or less the main points. You know what I'd like to do with it. This won't be a trailer queen. While I will take it to local shows, it won't be a factory restoration "show car." I'm going to play rough. :drive:

Thanks in advance for your suggestions / advice / raucous laughter.

 

[Big John]

Since this is your first build, I suggest staying a bit on the mild side. You want something a little more forgiving to cut your teeth on.

I'll go backwards.

Pistons. I'd use the Keith Black Hypereutectic KB162 and shoot for .020 oversize. Stock con rods that have been reconditioned will work fine.

Cam. Well that can open a real can of worms... many different opinions, but I would stay with a Hydraulic Flat Tappet with the stock rocker arms. Keep it simple. You won't have to worry about adjusting valve lash or buying expensive valve train parts. Cam selection is really dependent on the whole "package". Your intake/carb/exhaust selection will come into play. I suggest giving a couple cam companies a call for their recomendations. BTW, sometimes "less is more" when it comes to cams.

Heads. Here again, its part of the whole package. They can get expensive to have them ported right. IMHO, hardened valve seats and a good 3-angle valve job with stock valves and good valve springs is a good place to start.

The crank can probably be ground under, not a bad idea anyway and your machine shop can usually tell by looking if the nick is too deep.

As I said, I really think that a mild build is the way to go. It'll be fast enough to give you some chuckles, still run pump gas
and not cause you any headaches while you sort the rest of the car out.

 

[ACME A12]

Since this is your first build, I suggest staying a bit on the mild side. You want something a little more forgiving to cut your teeth on.

I'll go backwards.

Pistons. I'd use the Keith Black Hypereutectic KB162 and shoot for .020 oversize. Stock con rods that have been reconditioned will work fine.

Cam. Well that can open a real can of worms... many different opinions, but I would stay with a Hydraulic Flat Tappet with the stock rocker arms. Keep it simple. You won't have to worry about adjusting valve lash or buying expensive valve train parts. Cam selection is really dependent on the whole "package". Your intake/carb/exhaust selection will come into play. I suggest giving a couple cam companies a call for their recomendations. BTW, sometimes "less is more" when it comes to cams.

Heads. Here again, its part of the whole package. They can get expensive to have them ported right. IMHO, hardened valve seats and a good 3-angle valve job with stock valves and good valve springs is a good place to start.

The crank can probably be ground under, not a bad idea anyway and your machine shop can usually tell by looking if the nick is too deep.

As I said, I really think that a mild build is the way to go. It'll be fast enough to give you some chuckles, still run pump gas
and not cause you any headaches while you sort the rest of the car out.

Big has you headed very much in the right direction. Here's a couple of other thoughts:

Ask your machinist what he will charge you to recondition your rods - be specific! You want to know how much he is going to charge to resize the big end and rebush the small end. Often times this is quite expensive - depends on who is doing it and where. THERE IS NO SENSE IN SPENDING $700 TO GET A SET OF 40 YEAR OLD STOCK RODS RECONDITIONED WHEN YOU CAN PICK UP A NEW SET OF H-BEAMS FOR ABOUT $500. If you buy new rods, get H-Beams. DO NOT BUY A SET OF SIRS (I-BEAM) off of ebag just because they're cheap. They're junk - you always get what you pay for.

Like Big John said - keep it mild. No sense hogging out a set of 906s for a mild 383 (you'd probably be $ ahead to look at a set of Eddys or comparable anyway as porting ain't cheap). If you were building a serious engine you'd be scrapping plans for the 383 anyway as there is no substitute for cubic inches. Since you're not, focus on a well-planned, well-executed engine whose components are designed to function together and compliment one-another. Talk to Comp. Talk to Lunati. Talk to Hughes. Talk to everybody. Select a carb/intake/cam/piston/exhaust combo that will WORK TOGETHER. This cannot be overstated.

Keep the compression ratio <10 to 1 with the iron heads. You don't need to create headaches for yourself on your first build.

Are you planning on handling assembly duties yourself? If so you need to make friends with someone locally that has done this before - it isn't rocket science, but some specific tools are required and it is a little more complicated than walking into a cathouse if you've never kissed a girl before...

:jester:
ACME

 

[dobie]

Well, this is what I just did. Money is VERY tight for me, after surviving a divorce, etc..... The 383 I started out with was a 60,000 original mile 2 bbl low compression motor. I had the stock 906 heads shaved .020 to bump up compression a tad. The bowels were also opened up a tad. Nothing major, but enough to help with flow. Hardened seats were installed, along with new valve springs from the cam kit. For the cam, I went with a Comp Cams XE274H. .488/.491 split profile lift. This is what Comp recommended to me given all of my specs. I suppose I could've gone one larger, although right now I want reliability/drivability over out right power. At idle she's choppy, but nothing overboard. You can tell there's a larger cam in there, but it doesn't give the feeling of it's gonna stall cause it's so rough. Make sense? Then I finally added Hooker Competition headers which had been Jet-Hot coated. Total spent was around $1400 for parts and machine work/labor at the shop, excluding the headers and cam kit. Other specs on the car is 4 speed tranny, 3.91 gears, power nothing.

Down the road I'd like to build another motor. Honestly, I think I'll stay with a 383 and stroke it. I have another 383 block bored over .030, so I may or may not use that one depending on things. It looks as though I may have to go another .010 or so to clean things. We'll see. For now though, I'm very happy with my current set up.

:cheers:

 

[Hoosier Bird]

Tell your machinist exactly what you expect out of the car and tell him how much budget you have. Let him tell you what you need.

 

[mcmopar]

Hey buddy, check out this article on a build Mopar Muscle did some time back:
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/tech ... index.html
They started out building the 383 to original stock specs except for compression (9.2:1 vs stock 10:1), a 3 angle valve job on the 906 heads (no porting) and used a Mopar Perf. electronic ignition to test with. The engine made right around 338 hp and about 392 lb-ft of torque (IIRC).
They then upped the ante and this article tells how they did it. They picked up 117 HP over stock with non-ported 906 heads and stock rocker arms while upgrading the exhaust, intake and valvetrain.
I used this article as a basis for my 383 build but went one step smaller on the camshaft (since I have a/c in the car and didn't want all that duration), used 452 ported heads with 2.14/1.81 valves, utilized an Edelbrock Performer RPM instead of the M-1 single plane and a 750 Holley instead of the 850 Demon they used (I have an 850 Dbl Pumper I'll be trying one of these days). Being that my pistons were 11:1 TRW's that had been installed and massaged to remove all the sharp edges by a previous owner I wasn't about to dump them. Instead of the Hooker Headers I went with a complete TTI system (headers and 3" dia. exhaust) with Magnaflow mufflers and 3 " stainless steel "road runner" style exhaust tips. Jerry and I bolted it up initially but I had to take it apart to fix some damage done at the strip (another long story). I worked by myself and it all bolted back up beautifully.
My buddy Jerry (moparmoose3) has this cam (mentioned in the article) in his 440 and it is healthy! If you want a thumping 383 the cam in this article will certainly deliver! If you want one step less then go with the one I chose - the XE275HL-10. It has 231/237 duration @ .050" lift with a 110 lobe separation and .525" lift (with my 1.6 ratio roller rockers it nets .560" lift) and is a good, streetable cam with loads of power on tap. Just be aware you'll have to have the valve guides machined down and use Teflon valve seals.
If you want to chat some more about this setup send me a PM and I'll fill you in on anything else you might need or want to know. I can check with the guy who did my heads (and moparmoose3's too)and see if he'd be interested in doing yours. He's very reasonable and extremely knowledgeable. Talk to Jerry (moparmoose3) too. His may be a 440 but its a very close build to the 383 in the article and its a strong motor.

 

[Confederate1969]

Thanks for the advice guys.

I will be getting new rods. I've heard horror stories about reusing 40 year old rods. Except for the crank, the rotating mass will be new.

I hear folks say things like "mild" build, but for someone who's never rebuilt a car, I don't really know what that means. Maybe what you all call a mild build is just what I want. I'm not going for some kind of stroked out 496 ground pounding 8-9 second car. I want a modern, strong 383 that would make folks think I had a good 440 if I had no badges on the hood.

One thing I'll say too - I will never, ever be putting another engine in this '69 RR, barring any fatal problem with my 383 block. If I ever do a 440 build or something cool like a 413 or something, it will be in another car. This isn't an engine I will play with for a few years then turn into the proverbial 383 in the corner as I drop something larger in it. I'm wanting to do a great build with this 383 because I know it's going to stay. More cubes are great and I agree entirely, but the since the 383 will stay in this car, I'm going to make the most of it. I'm not interested in a factory or near factory build. Let me know what a mild build is and maybe that's just what I'm looking for, or maybe I want something a little warmer. I think it will probably just come down to money. :yesnod:

The main reason I say I want to really do this 383 right is that being young and not in any position now or in the next 10 years to afford more old Mopars to restore or put big engines into, this is probably going to be my only muscle car for a very long time. I never got to live through the '70s and buy a Super Bee or Challenger for $400 bucks. Those days are over. If it weren't for my dad clinging to his RR even though it didn't run for 25+ years, I wouldn't even have a dream of owning one.

 

[SomeCarGuy]

Tell your machinist you just want a blueprint type rebuild. Tell him to CORRECT the deck height- not just deck it. This is what you do to get an even number all the way across the block.

You do that so the valves will open all the same, the very same. IF the block is off, some valves will open more than others.

By mild, we mean that you should just fix the engine up, not change everything around. It means you don't run much more than the stock cam specs, it may even mean runnign a stock cam.

The old rods aren't going to break if they are in good shape and MIGHT keep you in budget. Good rods aren't cheap. It has been correctly pointed out that you don't need to spend more than a few hundred on the old rods. Any more and new rods are looking better.

 

[SomeCarGuy]

Oh and check on running a .990 pin instead of the porky stock pins. Lots of the pistons now come with them and most aftermarket rods cost no more with that end. That might run the recon of the stock rods over the threshold of getting aftermarket.

 

[moparmoose3]

well, as john (mcmopar) has told you, i'm running thew exact same cam as in the mopar article. i'm NOT running the same intake as they are. mine ia a holley street dominator intake. i'm telling you what i had a performer intake on my 440 to begin with and then put the holley on there, and it was a differance between day and night. go with the 214/181 valves and a port job. the same guy did mine as did john's and he left plenty more to do if needed. my first cam as the M/P 280-280-474 street and bracket cam. it was and is a great horsepower cam. to me that's a great cam to start with. it's a strong cam. my heads are 346 heads. john will tell you that 456 are also a good head to use. they both flow better #'s than 906's. john had 915 heads and got the 456 instead for his ride. if i were you do as the other's have told you but check into the RPM intake or the torker, or if you can find it the holley street dominator. i found mine at gartlits and only paid $100 for it. best money ever spent. well, that's my :cents: :cents: . ask the others but i swear by the M/P cam for your first cam. then you can build from there. :drive: :banana:

 

[Basketcase]

when we did the 440 in my '68 Charger, I got new pistons,bearings,cam,chain,etc. We reused the stock rods and crank. Everyone was telling me to "beef it up. I figured 375hp was enough, and it was. I used it for a daily driver, took 7 hour one way road trips, and never had any problems with it.

 

[Confederate1969]

Tell your machinist you just want a blueprint type rebuild. Tell him to CORRECT the deck height- not just deck it. This is what you do to get an even number all the way across the block.

You do that so the valves will open all the same, the very same. IF the block is off, some valves will open more than others.

By mild, we mean that you should just fix the engine up, not change everything around. It means you don't run much more than the stock cam specs, it may even mean runnign a stock cam.

The old rods aren't going to break if they are in good shape and MIGHT keep you in budget. Good rods aren't cheap. It has been correctly pointed out that you don't need to spend more than a few hundred on the old rods. Any more and new rods are looking better.

It's gonna be new rods, new everything except the crank if I can help it. I'm not doing a stock rebuild, so it's gonna be a fire sale upgrade. :yesnod:

 

[Big John]

There's different definitions of "mild".

Its easy to fall into the trap of "too much"... too much cam... too much carb... etc. For the novice it can end up being a nightmare and do nothing to add to the enjoyment of his car. As your "mods" increase, so do the amount of problems and with that it gets harder to figure those problems out.

A "mild" build gives you a few things. First is cost. Its all about "bang for the buck". If you spend all your engine budget in one place, you may not be able to afford the rest of the "package".

Next you have drivability. Overheating in traffic is no fun. Same for having to pump that expensive race gas out of the 55 gallon drum in your garage just to go buy an ice cream cone in your car. Then there's the true secret of a good street car.... A good running "mild" or even stock engined street car will outrun the street car that doesn't run well. Here's another secret.... a lot of so called "hot" street cars don't run that well or are even that fast for that matter. Trust me on this one..... I've been around a lot of cars.

So.. back to your build.... A stock 383 Roadrunner with a 4speed will run pretty well. It won't make your ears bleed from acceleration, but its still fun. Add a free flowing exhaust, aftermarket intake, a good cam that matches your combo and if you put it together right you now have a car that will beat 99% of the street cars out there.

 

[Confederate1969]

Thanks, John. I appreciate your advice.

 

[6t9runner440]

I had a mild 440 built for my car to run on pump fuel...I am using the Hypereutectic pistons that john mentioned and the cam dobie has...it has 452 heads with a mild port...weiand dual plane intake with an 800 cfm eddy thunder series carb...compression ratio is 9 to 1 so i get total timing out of pump fuel...I am also running stock exhaust with hemi mufflers...It has been extremely dependable and never overheats...and i'll tell ya what...it'll snap your neck if you punch it in low...plenty fast for the street...one more thing to consider if you want to get into the 500+ horsepower range...metal twists...I spent a lotta money in body work...don't want to ruin it...this is just for me and do what you want....it's your car but if i was gonna build a street strip car it wouldn't be a car with roadrunner numbers...Good luck on your build

 

[GTX MATT]

Well if you have no limit on keeping the car stock, you can really make a 383 thump, especially with a four speed. A 383 can really rev. Just because everyone builds 440s or strokers today doesnt mean 383s should be shelved. I love a 383, thats the engine that fought it out in the trenches for MoPar. In the 60s and 70s 383 cars were everyplace.

That being said, if this is your first build I agree with the others, a mild, warmed over build is best. I define a mild build as an engine that runs pretty similar to stock, is easy to drive, has nice manners, etc. A mild 383 using all factory external peices can put you solidly into the 13s with a 4 speed and 3.55 or 3.91 gears. All it takes is a blueprint type build with a cam similar to stock and good tuning. If you want to run headers, aftermarket intake and carb and whatnot, a good buildup would be something like:

Holley 750 with vacuum secondaries
Eddy RPM Intake
906 heads with bowl work maybe, stock valve sizes fine
1 3/4 inch headers
230 ish degree @.050 duration cam, maybe 110 LSA (I would decide what you want, what the rest of your combo will be, and call the cam manufacturer of your choice to get their reccomendation)
9.5:1 compression

Something like this will put out about 380-400 REAL horsepower. BTW, dont put too much faith in those mag tests for the 383 and 440 and 340, wyotechs dyno was found to be off by about 15-20 percent. They are still a nice guideline though.

 

[69hemibeep]

Well if you have no limit on keeping the car stock, you can really make a 383 thump, especially with a four speed. A 383 can really rev. Just because everyone builds 440s or strokers today doesnt mean 383s should be shelved. I love a 383, thats the engine that fought it out in the trenches for MoPar. In the 60s and 70s 383 cars were everyplace.

That being said, if this is your first build I agree with the others, a mild, warmed over build is best. I define a mild build as an engine that runs pretty similar to stock, is easy to drive, has nice manners, etc. A mild 383 using all factory external peices can put you solidly into the 13s with a 4 speed and 3.55 or 3.91 gears. All it takes is a blueprint type build with a cam similar to stock and good tuning. If you want to run headers, aftermarket intake and carb and whatnot, a good buildup would be something like:

Holley 750 with vacuum secondaries
Eddy RPM Intake
906 heads with bowl work maybe, stock valve sizes fine
1 3/4 inch headers
230 ish degree @.050 duration cam, maybe 110 LSA (I would decide what you want, what the rest of your combo will be, and call the cam manufacturer of your choice to get their reccomendation)
9.5:1 compression

Something like this will put out about 380-400 REAL horsepower. BTW, dont put too much faith in those mag tests for the 383 and 440 and 340, wyotechs dyno was found to be off by about 15-20 percent. They are still a nice guideline though.

I use to race a 383 cuda, I like the motor. And welcome to the site Matt :banana:

 

[GTX MATT]

Well if you have no limit on keeping the car stock, you can really make a 383 thump, especially with a four speed. A 383 can really rev. Just because everyone builds 440s or strokers today doesnt mean 383s should be shelved. I love a 383, thats the engine that fought it out in the trenches for MoPar. In the 60s and 70s 383 cars were everyplace.

That being said, if this is your first build I agree with the others, a mild, warmed over build is best. I define a mild build as an engine that runs pretty similar to stock, is easy to drive, has nice manners, etc. A mild 383 using all factory external peices can put you solidly into the 13s with a 4 speed and 3.55 or 3.91 gears. All it takes is a blueprint type build with a cam similar to stock and good tuning. If you want to run headers, aftermarket intake and carb and whatnot, a good buildup would be something like:

Holley 750 with vacuum secondaries
Eddy RPM Intake
906 heads with bowl work maybe, stock valve sizes fine
1 3/4 inch headers
230 ish degree @.050 duration cam, maybe 110 LSA (I would decide what you want, what the rest of your combo will be, and call the cam manufacturer of your choice to get their reccomendation)
9.5:1 compression

Something like this will put out about 380-400 REAL horsepower. BTW, dont put too much faith in those mag tests for the 383 and 440 and 340, wyotechs dyno was found to be off by about 15-20 percent. They are still a nice guideline though.

I use to race a 383 cuda, I like the motor. And welcome to the site Matt :banana:

Thanks, this looks like a good and friendly site I should be around often.
:drive:

 

[Hoosier Bird]

Welcome Matt, where you from?

 

[GTX MATT]

Im from Danbury, CT. Ill do a formal introduction in a new thread.