1969 hardtop with RM21 vin

[Ferd]

I recently purchased a 1969 Roadrunner hardtop. It’s a fairly original driver quality car. Some of the options are 4 speed, bench seat, N96 grabber hood, 14 inch factory road wheels. It has an older repaint in the original dark green metallic with the black matte hood stripes. I’m posting this because the vin number on this hardtop starts with RM21. The dash vin, and fender tag both match. The vin number also matches on the core support, and the trunk drivers quarter. Looking at the rear windows there’s no evidence someone changed the windows from a pillared coupe to a hardtop. Has anyone seen this vin numbering error on another car?

 

[HD539]

Welcome, I haven’t heard of an error like you’ve described but stranger things have happened. (Human error).

 

[69hemibeep]

Not likely it but its an easy conversion if it was apart for paint. Good looking car!

 

[V.R.D]

yes . there have been some story's that i have read and there have been vin mistakes i have seen as said human error

 

[torredcuda]

Being a fairly original car I wouldn`t think the vin was swapped along with the body numbers. It`s possible they could have changed it to a hardtop but could also just be a factory mistake.

 

[Ferd]

I appreciate the feedback on this car. I posted this as a shot in the dark that someone else had a car with the rm21/rm23 mismatch. No one has come forward with such a car. There are a couple other things that I have discovered. The trunk has a factory light, but there was no hot wire in the rear harness to plug into. Looking at internet photos there should be a pink and yellow jumper wire in the drivers kick panel where a wire from the pink (hot) would go to the trunk . My car doesn’t have the jumper, so I had to splice into the dome light pink wire and run it to the trunk. While I had the rear seat out to run the new trunk light wire, I pulled the package tray to really clean the entire rear seat area. What I noticed was the paint under the package tray is a different color than the car’s dark green metallic. I would describe the color as a light gold? Is this possibly the base coat, or primer for the F8 topcoat? I believe the same light color is visible on the underside of the car where floor jack use has scratched the undercoating.

 

[69hemibeep]

It sounds as if the car was one of the three bronze colors offered in 69. The trunk light was part of a light package that would have included lighted ignition switch, trunk and glove box lights, map light and fender mounted turn signals

 

[torredcuda]

There were a few other colors that it might be in those spots but I don`t think it would be a base/primer color. Here is a link to the colors offered - https://www.autocolorlibrary.com/pages/1969-Plymouth.html#parentHorizontalTab2
I would do some more digging under the dash and other areas for the light gold color, it could point to the car being a vin swap/rebody but there is still a possibilty it was an assembly line screw up. I have heard of cars being painted the wrong color on the assembly line and then painted over in the correct one. ANy evidence of welding or bodywork on the radiator support or trunk rail where the vin stamps are located?

 

[Ferd]

It sounds as if the car was one of the three bronze colors offered in 69. The trunk light was part of a light package that would have included lighted ignition switch, trunk and glove box lights, map light and fender mounted turn signals

I’m looking at the car and see above the ignition switch there is an opening for a light. Yes, the car has the fender turn signals. I have the lower half of a build sheet. I’m attaching five new photos. I included the trim tag and the core support to show what I see. The photo from my rear bumper shows paint chipping where the original color is revealed. I included a photo of the door panel to show the shade of the arm rests. They have faded slightly but appear slightly green. I appreciate your help in unraveling what this car was originally.

 

[Ferd]

There were a few other colors that it might be in those spots but I don`t think it would be a base/primer color. Here is a link to the colors offered - https://www.autocolorlibrary.com/pages/1969-Plymouth.html#parentHorizontalTab2
I would do some more digging under the dash and other areas for the light gold color, it could point to the car being a vin swap/rebody but there is still a possibilty it was an assembly line screw up. I have heard of cars being painted the wrong color on the assembly line and then painted over in the correct one. ANy evidence of welding or bodywork on the radiator support or trunk rail where the vin stamps are located?

Your color chart was helpful. I just included some photos on this thread to another member. Based in the color chart it looks like the original color was either F3 Frost green, or Y4 Spanish gold. I had the package tray out and the paint was clearly a shade of gold.

 

[69hemibeep]

Does the VIN tag look legit and have the correct rivets.

 

[Ferd]

I’m attaching a photo of the vin tag. It looks ok to my untrained eye. I just got into the trunk with a light looking for any trace of another paint color. There is no trace of another color or any repairs to the package tray. But the top of the package tray sheet metal has a golden color. I know the car was repainted. I’m guessing 15 to 20 years ago. When I had the rear seat out I looked for a date label on the replacement seat covers but found nothing. The fender lips have screw holes where wheel well trim used to be. The partial build sheet supports that option. I am coming full circle in thinking this was an error on the vin at the factory to use rm21. I also believe the trim tag is correct, and that the original color was F8 . Thank you for your advice!

 

[torredcuda]

Are engine and/or transmission matching? Did you buy private sale or dealer? Any previous owner history?

 

[Ferd]

The engine is not matching. I purchased the car after seeing it at a local car show from a private owner who had the car for 12 years. The engine is dated 1970. I have receipts for the engine being rebuilt by a local machine shop that is highly regarded (Michaels in Macedonia, OH). The cylinder heads were cracked, and the previous owner replaced them with Edelbrock et street heads that were given a fresh valve job. The transmission was rebuilt by the previous owner at a shop called Brewer’s Performance in Laura, OH. They modified the 4 speed to an overdrive setup.

 

[torredcuda]

I would contact the the previous owner and see if he may have any other owners information and also ask him if he did any of the resto work to it or has any info on it that could help solve the mystery. The only other thing you could do is remove the paint on the radiator support and trunk lip but I understand you probably don`t want to have to re-paint those areas. Can you tell if there is a factory F8 paint underneath the F8 re-paint or does it look to be right over the lighter gold color?

 

[Ferd]

I wish I had taken a photo of the paint on the package tray! Mice had been up in the headliner, and I wanted to clean up behind the rear seat. The paint under the hardboard was a hue of gold. It looked factory to me. Paint has flaked off behind the rear bumper on the passenger side. When I look at that small area it looks somewhat gold but possibly a very light green such as the F3 ivy color. I would have to scrape more paint off and get good light on it to verify. The man I purchased the car from did a little touch up with one of those 2 ounce bottles, but nothing else. I see what I believe was a restoration probably 15 to 20 years ago based solely on the condition of the paint which I would consider fair. There was bodywork which was rushed. I see body putty below the doors on both sides where the door jambs meet the rocker panels. It was not sanded very well before paint. There are areas of the front fender lips that have some filler also, but all the fender lips are in good shape. As mentioned previously the paint has lifted behind the bumper in one area. Whoever painted the car did a pretty good job, but again I see orbital marks under good light showing that wet sanding of the primer wasn’t done. In summary a driver quality car. I was supplied with title information on the three previous owners. One from Chicago, only had the car a brief time so I didn’t reach out to him, but I did send letters to the two others. One got back to me. He’s 83 and still working on cars! The gentleman lives in Prospect, OH which is a very small town near Marion. He owned the car roughly from 2001 to 2005. He was aware of the rm21/rm23 issue. He purchased the car from Hardon Motors which was a Chrysler-Plymouth dealership in Mt. Victory, OH. The story gets a little strange but remember this man is she 83. He stated he saw the car at Hardon Motors but they had an open title, and he actually went to the private seller to make the purchase. That man (who did not reply to my letter) lived in nearby Kenton, OH. Anyway, the old man told me during his ownership someone keyed the passenger quarter and he had someone paint that side of the car.

 

[69hemibeep]

Brewers is a good outfit I deal with them on 4 speed parts. The tag looks to be okay, its been painted around one or twice I'd say. But the dash and stamped numbers could be from a post car. Interesting, it's registered and not reported stolen so drive it, enjoy it and either cover the vin with something at shows or be the topic of discussion for some.

 

[torredcuda]

With the green re-paint flaking off directly to the the lighter color I`d still lean towards it being a re-body not a factory screw up, it may have been years ago and been thru a few owners since. If it bothers you it wouldn`t be too much work to make it a post car again but if otherwise like 69hemibeep said - just enjoy it and cover the vin tag if you don`t want to get questioned about it.

 

[Ferd]

Enjoyed the overall discussion on my car! Thank you all for your input. My intention is to drive this car often and enjoy it just the way it is, warts and all.

 

[ACME A12]

Could have been hit really hard in the rear at some point in its life, cut in half, and repaired with the rear clip from a hardtop. If you want to know for sure check the stamped numbers on the driver's quarter panel by the trunk rail. Peel up the rubber seal around the trunk up near the dutchman or look to see if the numbers are legible from underneath if you don't want to mess with the seal. I offer this is a possible solution to the mystery as I had a RR back in 1981 that had been surgically repaired in the middle. I got nailed in the passenger side quarter panel and discovered F8 paint hiding underneath the rear of a B3 car when I went to repair it. Turned out that the entire rear clip was originally F8 once I began investigating. It was spliced together at the floor pan seam in front of the torque boxes and at the roof sail panels. Yours is a nice car regardless of what its story is.

Completely unrelated - I was up in your neck of the woods last week. I work for a company based in Kent. Took Mrs. ACME with me on this trip. She is a Rootstown girl originally and went to hang out with her sister that still lives in the area. Small world.