more cop car 440 info

[sam z]

For anybody that has been following some of my threads on my motor thanks.
Even more thanks from those who chime in.

I recently contacted the previous owner trying to nail down what he had done to
the top end of the motor. The following is a quote from an email:

The heads were ported and polished with a three angle valve job. Stainless valves installed 2.14 intake and 1.81 exhaust. Hemi valve springs. Purple shaft 509 lift cam. Roller timing chain. I believe it was 10 to 1 compression but do not remember for sure . Holley street dominator single plane intake and holley 750 cfm dual feed dbl pump carb.

I'd like some opinions on my overall combination, and suggestions if there are any. The rest
of the vitals:
1972 440 HP with #346 heads (with above mentioned work)
Electronic ignition
Holly 750 #4779 DP mech secondary carb (how many times have I posted this???)
3.91 s/g rear
auto (I believe the original)
Headers with 3" pipes
I have no reason to believe this car has 10-1 compression. Nothing to back it up.

-I still lean towards a higher stall when the engine comes out. I did read something in MP about some sort of "balancing" for torque converters for this year. Can't recall right now.
-Should plugs gap be .040 with this arrangement?
-MP says timing should be set at total advance of 38. Correct?

Thanks guys, looking forward to what you may add.
-Sam

 

[zupanj]

I had a 509 cam in my 383 and I hated it. Note that I am sure that the engine was very low compression, maybe 8:1 range and it just would not run under 3000 rpm. Everything else was stock so the engine was out of breath at about 4300 rpm. My setup was a 4-speed with a 3.23:1 rear. I could hardly let the clutch out without the engine bogging.

Your engine is a different beast with a higher compression ratio and a lower rear gear so you might not have the same problem. Having said that I would change to a modern cam if it were me.

 

[69hemibeep]

Compression will make a cam work, and plug gap all depends on type of ignition

 

[SomeCarGuy]

You might find the engine likes a different amount of total timing. 38 is pretty commonly ran in a Mopar. I have an issue that I need to sort out with my car, it runs much smoother with 34 total. I might have a problem in the distributor though.

I seem to recall the statements in the MP books about "balanced" TC's. I wouldn't pay much if any attention to them.

I would suggest a Coan, Turbo Action, or Dynamic convertor before looking at MP offerings. Maybe a few others as well.

 

[moparchris]

I ran pretty much the same combo in my 440 duster except I had stock 906s. It didnt like anything over 5500 and ran mid 12s at 110 with ease. I had 3.55s and a 2200 stall. Very streetable even though there are way better cams than a 509. The 440s stroke and compression should make up for any ill driveability issues a 383 would experience. One disclaimer though, it makes crappy vacuum at idle. If you have power brakes you will need a vacuum reservoir for it. Your runner should be pretty outta hand with that motor if the heads are done right and it has all the stuff the guy claims it had. I am sticking to my original thoughts on the 750 dp which I like very much, but it would make more power with an 850dp or a Thermoquad.

 

[sam z]

Thanks guys,
Car has manual brakes, and yes the manifold vacuum with this cam is low but in traffic and ordinary driving the car does ok. Runs at good temp, bogs ever so slightly at mild take off, but ok otherwise.

We've beat this up before, but I figure the more info the better. I would like this car to launch harder and respond more sharp from a dead stop. Maybe my driving sucks, but I think the timing and carb need TLC. Being done as we speak.

Chris, I gave you a ring around a week ago and left a message. I believe the old owner is being honest. He packed a few receipts away in some reference material he gave me and it matches up with his comments.

 

[mcmopar]

A '72 440 automatic was externally balanced and required a balanced torque converter back then. There were small weights welded onto the converter. Without the weights you WILL have harmonic vibrations which will cause problems - not the least of which is a vibration at speed that feels like a bad u-joint.
The thing to do these days is to buy a B&M balanced flexplate. With one of these flexplates you can run any converter you want without having to have the converter balanced. The flexplate takes care of the balancing. I ran one of these flexplates on my TF equipped '71 Charger SE which had a '74 440 in it. worked like a charm.

 

[moparchris]

Thanks guys,
Car has manual brakes, and yes the manifold vacuum with this cam is low but in traffic and ordinary driving the car does ok. Runs at good temp, bogs ever so slightly at mild take off, but ok otherwise.

We've beat this up before, but I figure the more info the better. I would like this car to launch harder and respond more sharp from a dead stop. Maybe my driving sucks, but I think the timing and carb need TLC. Being done as we speak.

Chris, I gave you a ring around a week ago and left a message. I believe the old owner is being honest. He packed a few receipts away in some reference material he gave me and it matches up with his comments.

Sorry, I have not had the time to call you back, especially with the time difference between us. I will try to call this week.

 

[SomeCarGuy]

72 model is internal balance.

 

[mcmopar]

72 model is internal balance.

That is correct if the crankshaft is forged but if the crank is a cast item then the engine is externally balanced and requires either a balanced torque converter or the balanced flexplate. Generally, 4 speed cars used the forged crank while automatics used the cast cranks. One way to tell if you need the balanced flexplate or torque converter is to look at the harmonic balancer. If it's about 1" thick (like the '69 383/440) or so then the engine has a forged crank and you can use a regular torque converter but if it is the thick balancer (almost 2" - its a beefy brute) you'll need the balanced flexplate or torque converter.
Of course, the easiest way to tell is to look at the current torque converter. If there are two balance weights (1 on either side of the converter drain plug) a balanced flexplate or torque converter will be required.

From TCI's website: http://www.tciauto.com/Products/Convert ... ations.asp - bottom of the page.
Special Chrysler Torque Converter Balance Weight Information
It is very important when replacing Chrysler torque converters that the correct balance weight be used on your new converters. Chrysler engines with cast crankshafts require balance weights on the torque converter to bring the engine assembly into proper balance. Up until 1977, the factory converter came with two rectangular weights located on each side of the drain plug. There are three types of rectangular weights: A, B & C. In 1977, Chrysler changed to a single butterfly weight. These weights corresponded to the 'B' and 'C' weights. Please refer to the identification chart for weight type.

Rectangular A: .158" thick B: .250" thick C: .380" thick
Butterfly B: 1.157" wide C: 2.545" wide
Square S: .300"T/.219"L/.200"W

 

[SomeCarGuy]

Yes, but the 72 model is forged. Even with an auto. I know, I ran one from a C body for years and years. If it is an HP, it could have the Six Pack rods that have a different balancer.

 

[moparstuart]

Yes, but the 72 model is forged. Even with an auto. I know, I ran one from a C body for years and years. If it is an HP, it could have the Six Pack rods that have a different balancer.

correct the six pac balancer is huge almost like the 73 up cast crank externally balanced motor has .

here is what those heavy rods do for you , nice ventalation

 

[SomeCarGuy]

Maybe somebody can confirm if there were additional weights on the convertor of a heavy rod motor. I think the bigger balancer covered it though

 

[sam z]

That's one hell of a picture...wow.

 

[moparchris]

Yes, but the 72 model is forged. Even with an auto. I know, I ran one from a C body for years and years. If it is an HP, it could have the Six Pack rods that have a different balancer.

correct the six pac balancer is huge almost like the 73 up cast crank externally balanced motor has .

here is what those heavy rods do for you , nice ventalation

I hope that wasnt your motor Stu

 

[moparstuart]

Yes, but the 72 model is forged. Even with an auto. I know, I ran one from a C body for years and years. If it is an HP, it could have the Six Pack rods that have a different balancer.

correct the six pac balancer is huge almost like the 73 up cast crank externally balanced motor has .

here is what those heavy rods do for you , nice ventalation

I hope that wasnt your motor Stu

yes it was real six pac 70 motor too.

I have a 71 standard bore block in the birdible now with standard rod and the rest of the guts from the six pac motor

 

[moparstuart]

:jester: :jester: :jester: :jester: :jester:

 

[ACME A12]

Looks like a good "J-B Weld" opportunity... :lmao:

 

[moparstuart]

Looks like a good "J-B Weld" opportunity... :lmao:

more like maybe a glass topped coffee table ?????

 

[69hemibeep]

ouch, this calls for PC7 and long pan bolts :jester: